17 comments
Scottie:
I suppose I am just preaching to the choir, though my first foray into the subject came on FaceBook where my ideas were not very welcome. I had hoped to draw those folks into a conversation that was more substantial than brief back-and-forth wall comments. Alas that hasn't happened.
Good idea for a topic--let me start working on that...
Thanks for commenting.
Is it civil to use sexual imagery for motor-boats which are shaped the way they are because of the laws of physics? Is it civil to not so subtly attack their owners on the basis of the false accusations implied?
All of the pro-life signs I have seen have been extremely positive and understated. I believe we ought to be far more blatant and to the point, to shake people out of their state of denial about what is going on even in this part of Minnesota. I can't imagine that road signs (were they to have been permitted) suggesting that letting a Jew live is a nice, heartwarming thing would have been effective against Auschwitz, whereas brutal pictures of the reality such as General Eisenhower insisted be taken might have made a difference. And frankly, the only difference is six million versus fifty million.
Why do you think that nice, heartwarming pictures of happy babies and toddlers will have no impact on the pro-aborts? Do you think they are that far gone from the human?
I suspect that many Americans including self-identified Christians allow abortion to happen because they let themselves ignore it, or pretend that "it is just a mass of tissue" real pictures of real butchered babies might shake them out of it. We must afflicted those comfortable with their sins, and comfort the afflicted. Law and Gospel must be rightly applied.
Dennis,
It's hard for you or anyone to communicate fully in a blog. So with that qualification... I think I disagree. Not because you didn't make a good point. I actually agree with you in principle because I think your main point of civility is biblical. I disagree with this recent post for the most part because the point you make is a limited point.
If you are critiquing "billboard" communication, certainly it's impact is questionable - at best an annoyance, at worse an anger generator. However, if you are critiquing our relationships with a co-worker or neighbor or fellow church goer... I think the critique fails. My "guess" is that many of us over the course of a relationship don't have "billboard" conversations with people. Not if we are around them a lot. I do think people see a bigger picture of who God is and how He is present in my life (and the churches life) then what mere sloganeering would offer, even if we repeat some of the slogans to summarize a point. People saw a bigger picture in Jesus... and killed Him which tells me the other person's response is not always an indicator of whether I have been faithful or not. Thus, I don't think it's entirely fair to critique the communication of Christians based on results or even how the other person responds. Apart from God's grace, the other person will always self-justify. I know I do. So, I think it's a caricature (in part it's a caricature because sadly there are plenty of examples where we do just communicate in billboard slogans and don't listen) to describe the problem this way. Even in today's world many of us still live face-to-face and not just text-to-text or Facebook-to-Facebook. And people still reject Christ, Christ's people, and the good.
Tim Keller wrote an article titled "Faithfulness & Meekness" that I believe is still posted on Redeemers website that tries to capture the balance between forthright speaking and compassion. I found it helpful.
P.S. The best part of what you posted was the snapshot you gave us of how you and your wife have nurtured your marriage together. Thanks for sharing that.
I had a conversation a few months ago with a couple of co-workers. They were expressing their frustration with single-issue voters, commenting that they couldn't understand how some voters can take one issue and make it a litmus test. (I realize your post is about civility, rather than abortion. Just happens that in this example there is overlap.) I told them that I understood how it can seem irrational to vote for someone who is pro-life on one issue, yet seemingly not pro-life on other issues. Then I said that the reason single-issue voters are singe-issue voters is because life is a prerequisite to all other rights. I said, "The Declaration of Independence says that we have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Those aren't in random order. You have to have life before you can have liberty, and you must have liberty before you can pursue happiness." Then I said that all the support in the world for better nutrition, better housing, equal rights, etc. was of no use to me if I were not alive. They looked at me for a minute and then said, "I never thought about it that way before."
Second response: I am not sure if I agree with Hitchens that abortion is "popular" because people fear being "pulled downwards in world of servitude." He may be right. When I'm in conversation with people about "abortion rights" it's obvious that we are talking past each other.
I do have a question about civility, though. Is there a point at which civility becomes tacit acceptance? Do we have to appear apologetic for our point of view in order to be considered civil?
Do you recall the pro-life video done by Tim Tebow and his mom for the Super Bowl? Was that civil? I thought so. And yet the pro-choice crowd was in full attack mode.
Thank you again for your heart in this matter of civility. I don't know you and Margie, but I found Notes From Toad Hollow in my church office one day, and have been a follower ever since.
I admit, rather sheepishly, that a little bit of this went over my head. I think, perhaps, there is more than one dialogue present, and I would explore that.
I do think the billboards are a great example, but I also see by the comments that sadly, the example seems to be lost in the language. Seems like you've proven your point without setting out to do that. It seems like such an obvious example, but I (humbly) suggest your readers are not quite to the place where they can get past the hot button issue and actually see the point you are making.
The Hitchens quote is compelling, but perhaps a little too oblique for this post. I would like to see this matter approached with an entirely different example, just to flesh it out some more.
Regards, Cassandra
Stephen:
Again, thanks for commenting, again.
I had thought that my reflections on the banter between spouses on a day away would be read as that, namely banter. That is how I meant it because that is what it was. However, the yachts do express wealth and the long inboard boats are phallic in shape--I'm not certain why those facts should be called into question.
You misunderstand my point about the signs and billboards. I am not questioning whether they are understated or should be more blatant. That is a separate issue. I am saying they do not communicate what the pro-life supporters desire because they do not address the defining issue that is the foundational conviction of the pro-choice position. Sorry I was not more clear.
Tobey:
I appreciate your comment and suspect I did not communicate clearly.
I agree that the effectiveness of our communication is not the primary standard for evaluation. Point well taken, and I am sorry if I suggested otherwise. On the other hand, I do believe that as Christians we have a responsibility to address the actual questions or challenges being raised. In this I believe the pro-life signs fail. They seek to demonstrate something that pro-lifers find compelling but that pro-choicers, according to Hitchens at least, would agree with as the very reason for choosing an abortion.
Luther (I think it was) once said something about (don't you just love exact references?) we fail as Christians if we fail to fight at the actual point where the spiritual battle is being waged. I think there are pro-life arguments that might be compelling (though not necessarily convincing) to pro-choice folk, but none of them appeared on the billboards.
Brian:
I am glad for the conversation. Thanks for leaving a comment. More than one comment, in fact.
The issue of single issue voting takes us off topic, and is too rich a subject to do justice to in a few lines. Your argument is a good one, but limited. Some candidates running for office will have no possible effect on the legality of abortion. Voting for a poorly qualified county treasurer because they are pro-life instead of a better qualified pro-choice candidate for that office is not, in my mind, Christian faithfulness. Luther said he would rather be ruled by a good Turk (Muslim) rather than a bad Christian. He was correct and we should vote accordingly.
Brian:
You ask excellent questions in your second comment.
"Is there a point at which civility becomes tacit acceptance?" I don't see how. I am not suggesting we don't speak, but that we speak with winsomeness and by addressing the real issues involved.
"Do we have to appear apologetic for our point of view in order to be considered civil?" No. Keller isn't apologetic in his book, The Reason for God, but he is civil.
It seems you've struck a nerve here, my friend.
Most of these many comments seem to focus on two points: Is my speaking style in the public square appropriate for a follower of Jesus? Is it effective? The desire to emphasize the latter over the former is one I often feel, but still recognize for what it is: a temptation to sin, and thus, to be resisted.
Greg:
Well said, my friend.
The need to get "inside" someone else's worldview in order to understand their assumptions so that our conversation gets past surface things is a difficult task. It takes patience, listening, grace. What seems discouraging at times is that so many Christians don't even see the need. As long as "truth" is proclaimed everything is just fine, even if the truth in question is misunderstood by their listeners. It is an extremely self-centered posture since they become the final standard of what is appropriate to be said. Utterly antithetical to Jesus' example.
"...we give the impression of being out of touch and of being people who simply want to force our convictions on others." "Impression" may be too mild. Is it not the case that we do want to force our convictions. We speak of culture wars, of winning the battle. While there is biblical use of those words and metaphors in the spiritual realm, we tend to use them in the political/social realm. It is no surprise that civility suffers. And it should be no surprise that the world views us with suspicion.
Cal:
I agree completely. Perhaps my word choice was too generous, though I hoped that how I wrote it would make people think.
I suspect that when a history is written of the late 20th and early 21st century church, it's embrace of the "culture war" model to define Christian faithfulness will be seen as a main reason so many of the postmodern generation became convinced the gospel has nothing to say to them. Anne Rice's recent comments are only the latest evidence to that effect.
Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment.
Denis,
I apologize if I was unclear. I wasn't offering an argument for single-issue voting. I hoped to offer an example of a conversation where I think I succeeded in being civil, and where I think I helped those on the other side understand why someone might be a single-issue voter.
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