11 comments
i'm definitely not surprised when those who don't follow christ, don't follow his teachings or laws. the problem for me has always been though, how to react to this? should i be speaking against this lifestyle or action acted out by a good friend? is that too, putting the 'cart before the horse' as this article suggests? can i recommend something like remaining with their partner, as something superficially good to do, while their foundational view of relationships and marriage is entirely different? is there really something in pretending to be something you're not, as CS Lewis suggests? when the people ask John what to do, he instructs them to good actions 'man with two tunics should share with him who has none' and tells groups like soldiers not to extort money. i would imagine many had the same opinion or experience of their 'religion' as something quasi legalistic and culturally ingrained as many in the US do, yet the command here seems to affirm this with still more rules or acts we should be doing, rather than imploring the people to something i would see as more relational such as repentance or prayer. perhaps then somehow whitewash on a tomb permeates deeper than we think?
I think that Luke makes an important point, and one that I don't have a full response to, but I would like to add a thought. Bear in mind that I grew up in the church. During a period in my life of more or less serious rebellion, a close friend with a much better understanding of what it means to have a relationship with God asked me a very simple question. He knew that I understood that my behavior was, Biblically-speaking, wrong--in this sense I may be a bit off Luke's point--but rather than to remind me off certain commandments he asked me if I was happy...really happy.
He wasn't saying, "I just want you to be happy", and he wasn't saying "You can't be happy this way." He had relational credibility to ask me how I felt in a deep and serious way. That relational credibility is the key to the problem Luke raises. People with no emotional purchase on their audience can't evoke a response with a question like "are you happy?" Only friends who demonstrably love you can do that. The Ten Commandments can more or less help everyone to be more aware of their sin, but they do not help them understand what that sin means and they do not help them escape the consequences of that sin. Only relationship does that. Relationship with God in adopted Sonship through Christ does that. Relationship with one of those adopted Sons is what we have personally to offer the world while we are here. To close friends with thorny issues, we don't pretend to be "something that we are not." Rather we stand ready to say, as the great Theologian Spock once said, "I have been, and always shall be, your friend."
I really appreciate these discussions. Especially as I continue to work out my faith. I've been pondering this post and appreciate the comments already posted.
I agree, and am grateful I'd had a conversation similar to this many years ago. What it does, or did, is put the focus on me. I don't mean that in a self centered way, but in a way that asks if I am following God's commands. In addition to not being surprised when those who don't follow Christ break His commands, I am not surprised when those who do follow Christ break His commands. None of us has arrived. We are all being refined daily.
God's laws are not set out, in my understanding, as something we strive to achieve, they are a guideline that we can use to perhaps gauge our journey. I'm sure I've left that open to a non-biblical interpretation, that is not my intention. I just believe we are meant to work out our own faith, in community. It is by seeking the Lord in our own lives that will cause others to question their own standing; not by telling them how to live.
I don't believe we are to tell people right and wrong, we are to live it. I think, for the most part it is not our job to react to people's choices, but to just love them. If someone asks, specifically what we think, we can point them to the gospel, with, as Kurt says, the assurance that we are a friend. But that has to be earned. The right to speak into people's lives is a delicate thing, and far too many Christians are far more concerned that others come in line with the law, while neglecting their own sin nature. (And just one believer doing that, just me doing that is one too many.)
Somewhere in this dialogue, I would think the Scripture about taking the plank out of our own eye should come up. There, I brought it up.
Snacks:
You are welcome. Enns is thought-provoking.
Denis
Luke:
You raise such an excellent question. So much, it seems to me, hangs on how we respond to it.
My conviction is that it is presumptuous of us to do more than answer the question we are being asked, or to meet the person honestly where they are in their pilgrimage. Presumptuous because life is always more richly convoluted than we can know, and we simply don't know all that God is doing in someone's heart and mind.
If someone asks me, I would say, Yes, faithfulness is an admirable trait while unfaithfulness is destructive in relationships. It seems to me that this is true regardless of the relationship we are discussing, and as a Christian I am bound to love and serve the truth. It also seems to me that it is Spirit's job to convict the world of sin, and that to think he needs my help to accomplish it properly is another form of presumption.
The distinction the Bible makes in 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 seems to me to be both clear and unambiguous. Sadly, Christians today tend to do precisely the opposite.
Warmly
Denis
Kurt:
Your example gets at the truth that is explained in 1 Corinthians 5:9-13. A sister or brother who loves us enough to confront us is a precious and rare gift of grace. The Christian that goes around telling non-Christians how to live is living in a way that is distinctly unlike Christ.
We should probably do more to think creatively how to ask sensitive questions as your friend did. The longer I've lived the more I've come to realize that asking good questions is not automatic, but a hard-won skill.
Thanks for contributing,
Denis
Cassandra:
I am always pleased when I see your name appear in these discussions!
You make a key point when you say the law is primarily to be lived, so that people can be drawn to the beauty of living according to God's word. It is what drew so many people to Christ in his ministry--the fabled "multitudes" mentioned in the Gospels.
And your comment about the splinter/plank in the eye--there is an article in Critique 2011:4 on precisely this--how we can ask sensitive questions to one another, while being aware that often the people most eager to remove our splinter has a plank in their eye. As I point out in my article, Jesus called them "swine."
Blessings,
Denis
I am aligning with Luke--we need to meet people where they ARE foundationally, not where we think they should be. If we are holding their "morality" (legally or simply behaviorally) up to a standard that doesn't have the same basis as ours, then how can we have a relationship with them that is not (perceived or actually) judgemental? That is no relationship, and any real discussion is over.
I THINK this falls under the same trap as Christians trying to legislate morality. Anyone out there have an opinion on how to apply Pete's views (which I share)to the slippery slope of legalizing same-sex marriage, and the debates that surround it, often in the name of Christianity?
Leslie:
Thanks so much for joining the conversation. I agree with you about the danger of being judgmental, and how that is so destructive to relationships. Some of us were raised hearing that if we saw someone doing something that was wrong, it was wrong of us to remain silent about it. When people responded negatively we were told that righteous people should expect to be disliked. A wicked distortion of the truth.
The question about the debate over same-sex marriage is a vexed one. (When you mentioned "Pete" it took me a moment to think who were referring to--then I realized you know Peter Enns.) Anyway, there seems to be three answers being proposed.
One, the conservative position which is a political ideology (idolatry) with a thin veneer of religiosity to make it appear Judeo-Christian. A dead end in my view.
Two, some argue that this debate is not a matter of God's law but is rooted instead in creation and natural law, both of which, proponents claim, conclude against same-sex marriage. Touchstone magazine, for example, seems to take this position.
Three, that this conclusion from natural law is not fully compelling except to those whose views are informed by God's law, and so in a pluralistic culture no minority has the right to impose their view of marriage. Further, the church does not need the state to affirm its definition of marriage, nor is it threatened if the state holds a less than biblical view. This is by and large the position argued with clarity and compassion by Misty Irons (http://www.moremusingson.blogspot.com/).
What is troubling to me is that in the church One is so powerful, and Two is so certain that it is the only possible option that Three never gets a hearing.
Say hey to Margentina, if you ever see her again.
Denis
Denis--"Three" is the most thought-provoking and I am intrigued as to how it applies way beyond outside of same-sex marriage.
Anytime we can say, and stand behind, "...the church does not need the state to affirm its definition of (fill in blank), nor is it threatened if the state holds a less than biblical view...", I am with ya. But I have more thinking to do.
Thanks for dragging me in.
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